Hebrews 6:4-9 Episode 12 - Tasting the Good Gifts, Without True Conversion

The author Hebrews gives his readers a stern warning regarding the dangers of seeing the blessings of Salvation, and in some way, participating in the experience of the Holy Spirit’s presence, without true conversion. Those who fall away and reject Christ after such experiences will not be easily brought to repentance and faith, since they have already seen all the blessings of Christ, and it bore zero fruit in their lives. 

- PODCAST TRANSCRIPT - 

Joel

Hi. Welcome to the Two Journeys podcast. This is episode 12 from the book of Hebrews titled: “Tasting the Good Gifts Without True Conversion.” We're looking at Hebrews 6:4-9. I'm your host, Joel Hartford. I'm here with Pastor Andy Davis.

Andy, this is a very challenging section of scripture. Many Christians have debated over the meaning of this. Can you give us just a brief overview of some of the things we're going to see here that cause people concern?

Andy

Well, yeah, this is a very controversial passage really. It's a battleground passage that many have come to and have gone back and forth over on the issue of security of salvation. The question is: is it possible to lose your salvation? Is it possible to be converted, genuinely converted, but, in the end, end up in hell?

There are two great theological systems within Evangelicalism, the Calvinist system and the Arminian system, and they tend to battle over the issue of security of salvation, and those that advocate that you actually can lose your salvation would bring people to Hebrews 6:4 and following. This is the passage that we're going to look at today and try to understand it, try to understand what the author is saying and what the dangers are. `

Joel

Well, for the sake of our audience, I'm going to read Hebrews 6 and, just to get a little idea of the context, I'm going to start with verse 1 even though today our questions are starting in verse 4, and I'm going to carry through verse 12, although, in the next podcast, we'll look at verses 9-12,

Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, and of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. And this we will do if God permits. For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned. Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things- things that belong to salvation. For God is not unjust so as to overlook your work and the love that you have shown for his name in serving the saints, as you still do. And we desire each one of you to show the same earnestness to have the full assurance of hope until the end, so that you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Andy, starting in verse four, the word that jumps out at me is this word impossible. The verse says, "It is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened,"(Hebrews 6:4) and then it goes on to talk about people who have experienced spiritual things. What does impossible mean in this sentence?

Andy

It's a very challenging word for me. It's hard for me fully to understand. One thing we need to note is that verse four begins with the connective word "for" which actually the NIV leaves out entirely. There is a strong link between verse three and four. If you look at them together, "God permitting, we will do so for it is impossible for those who have once been enlightened," et cetera. When we look at the impossibility of verse four, let's keep it simple and just take all the clauses in between, for those who have X and Y and Z and A and B and C, let's take all that out, it is impossible for those people to be renewed again to repentance. That's what is impossible, where they seem to have been repentant for their sins before and living the Christian life, and now they're not repentant and living the Christian life, and you want to try to get them again to be repentant to living the Christian life, he said that's impossible, and that's a challenge obviously for us because, fundamentally, we know that God can do anything. You remember how Jesus said it's very hard for a rich person to go to heaven? He said, “‘It's easier for a camel to go through the eye of the needle than for a rich man to go to heaven.’ When the disciples were amazed at this, they said, ‘Well, who can be saved?’ and Jesus answered, ‘With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.’” (Paraphrase of Matthew 19:24-26) Now we have this text saying it is impossible. For me, I understand the text this way saying, the only reason that this is impossible is that God will not do it. The whole thing comes down to the sovereignty of God for me. God permitting, we will make progress. If he doesn't permit, it's impossible for you to be saved. I'm going to really put it down to this, that God will not renew these individuals to repentance for the reasons that the author gives.

Joel

That brings, I think, the obvious question for most people then: do we still plead and pray for repentance for people who it seems that this scary situation maybe describes someone we love who's wandered away? How do we still plead for mercy and ask God to save them in light of this verse?

Andy

Well, I don't think we're able to take all these clauses and the condition if they fall away and specifically apply it to any person saying, well, we know it's impossible for them. We're supposed to always be of good hope and pray for people even in the worst cases. You and I were talking earlier today about this text and saying, for us, at the human level say it's very difficult. We know that there are people like this, and you try to go talk to them. It's very, very difficult to talk to them because, honestly, here's the point, they've heard it all before. They ran with the evangelical church for a while. They heard the gospel again and again. They've heard the best exegeses and they've seen the best examples, and it wasn't enough for them. They fell away.

For them, it's just very, very difficult to see them turning back. We don't see that very often, but this language here is not, "It's very difficult," or, "We don't see it very often." It's saying, "It's impossible," so we really have to say the ultimate impossibility rests with God. For us though, as we look at cases like this, we recognize this is a very dire situation. It's something that's very serious.

Joel

Yeah. That makes sense. Now, let's go through some of these clauses. He says, "It's impossible for those who have once been enlightened." (Paraphrase of Hebrews 6:4) What is this word? Both these words, once and enlightened, what is this teaching or the kind of person we're talking about?

Andy

Sure. If we look at the whole list together, and then we'll go through it line by line, but if you look at it, once been enlightened, tasted of the heavenly good, shared in the Holy Spirit, tasted of the goodness of the word of God, powers of the coming age, these descriptors, everyone wants to know. The battleground is are these people genuinely born again or not? Are they genuinely Christians? Have they been justified by faith in Christ? That's the question, and then they fall away and they can't be renewed again to repentance. If they have been, then the teaching goes, from the Armenian point of view, that this is a clear text teaching that you can lose your salvation.

Now, I think that the motive that that theological system has is to keep you from becoming complacent, which is the very thing that the author is working on. They have the same motive as the author, don't get lazy. Don't be complacent. You got to keep running this race right to the end. The people who stand firm to the end will be saved, those kinds of things. They think that by saying, "You can be a genuine Christian and then end up losing your salvation, end up in hell," they're actually helping with perseverance. I think they actually hinder it because it's very discouraging. You're being very man-centered. You're focusing, "It's all up to you to keep yourself saved." Basically, "He who began a good work in you will get out of the way and let you finish it," and so, fundamentally, we have to say, no, that's not an appropriate way of understanding salvation.

I don't think it is possible for someone who has received the gift of eternal life to later die because then they didn't receive eternal life. They received, I don't know, a seven-year, three-month, two-week, one-day and four-hour life, and then they fell away. For me, if you receive eternal life, you're going to eternally live both in this life and the next. You will survive physical death. You will survive judgment day. You'll never go to hell. You'll not be condemned. This is the absolute certainty we have. There are so many other verses that teach eternal security, and I'm not going to go into them. The question here is: are these people genuinely born again? I would have to answer that, if they can fall away from Christ, apostatized, then they were not genuinely born again.

"If you receive eternal life, you're going to eternally live both in this life and the next. You will survive physical death. You will survive judgment day. You'll never go to hell. You'll not be condemned. This is the absolute certainty we have."

Now, having said that, we have to go through the phrases. How then can we understand these phrases in light of someone who's not really born again? That's the angle you're going to take here. Let's look at them one at a time. By the way, what I just said is corroborated by a very clear teaching in 1 John where it says, "They went out from us because they were not really of us. If they had been of us, they would've continued with us, as it is their going out shows that they were not really of us." (Paraphrase of 1 John 2:19) I think that's the same, within biblical framework to teach this kind of thing. When somebody falls away, they're showing they never really were converted to begin with.

All right, so the problem then becomes the actual phraseology here, the actual phrases. We start with the first one. It is impossible for those who have been, what is it, once enlightened?

Joel

Those who have once been enlightened. Yeah.

Andy

Once been enlightened. I think, as I remember the Greek, it relates to the word for light, “photizo”, something like that. There's a sense of light coming to you. When we think of enlightenment, we're not thinking about Buddhism now where you're eventually going to reach nirvana or something like that. No. Enlightened means to arrive at a certain kind of aha moment scripturally and spiritually. You see something you haven't seen before. There's something that amazes you. In some way, your eyes are opened and you can see new things. What we have to do is say, “All right, is it possible to have an experience of enlightenment like this and still not be born again?” Can we have an experience in which you learn something new, that's very profound and that moves you emotionally, but you're actually not born again? I think the answer is yes. There are many reactions to Christ's miracles, for example. People marveled. They were amazed. They were astonished. They thought it was incredible, but it says in John 2 that, “Many came there to see Jesus' miracles, but Jesus would not entrust himself to them because he knew all men and he didn't need anyone to give him testimony about what was in man because he himself knew what was in man.” (Paraphrase of John 2:23-25) in other words, these are people that marveled at Jesus' miracles, but they weren't actually born again. Now, in this, it has to do with more of an intellectual spiritual enlightenment. They've heard some preaching. There's been some insights and like, "Wow, that's profound. Wow, that's very deep. Wow, that's very interesting. That's fascinating." there's a movement inside them, intellectual pleasure, moments of surprise even and, like I said, the aha moment. Keep in mind, in the parable of the seed and the soils, we have the stony ground here that hears the word, and it says, "at once receives it with joy" (Matthew 13:20). We could well imagine that you could use the word enlightened at that point. They're excited about the Word. They're filled with joy over it, but they're not born again. They have once been enlightened.

Joel

Yeah, and it says, "They've tasted the heavenly gift." I don't know if that's referring to... Well, it says, "And then they've shared in the Holy Spirit." (Paraphrase of Hebrews 6:4) Before we get to shared, tasted the heavenly gift, there seems to be people that they see, like you said, the joy of heaven, maybe the fellowship of the people of God and the spirit of Christ among the people, but then it has no effect on them.

Andy

Big picture, I think what's going on is that the author of the Hebrews is talking about people who went to church. They did not forsake the assembling of themselves together, but they went and they heard preaching. Keep in mind, and this is very important for my exegesis of this passage, back in Hebrews 2, it says that the gospel has testified, too, by signs and wonders and gifts of the Holy Spirit, and so they had experienced miracles. They had seen. They may even have been healed or had a loved one healed by some apostolic miracles, and they were amazed at that. They were stunned by that. They tasted the heavenly gift. Keep in mind also, Jesus uses a similar expression with the Samaritan woman, "If you knew the gift of God and who it is who says to you, 'Give me a drink,' you would ask him and he will give you living water." (Paraphrase of John 4:10) You could say that they tasted the gift of living water. They had an experience of Christ, an experience of the goodness of Christ and of his role as savior and all that at an external level. They're not genuinely born again. They don't have saving faith, but they have tasted ultimately Christ, the gift of God, the heavenly gift.

Joel

Now what about this, "Shared in the Holy Spirit?" (Hebrews 6:4)

Andy

Yeah. Is that the ESV "shared"?

Joel

The ESV says, "Shared in the Holy Spirit."

Andy

Maybe be partakers in it. Again, I think what I'm going to look at, if you go back to Hebrews 2:1-4, that section, it talks about how those who were eyewitnesses testified to the gospel with signs and wonders. I think what you've got is a really remarkable 1st century Christian community in which these people have been partakers. They've come on Sundays, and they've seen signs and wonders. They've seen healings. They've heard speaking in tongues and prophecy. They'd had some amazing predictions made and saw them fulfilled. They marveled. They marveled. They marveled. It was an amazing experience, and they kept coming. They were sharing in the gifts of the Holy Spirit. We would not want to say that they had received the gift of the Holy Spirit, in other words, the indwelling spirit, because Jesus said, "I will send you the Spirit of truth to be with you forever." (Paraphrase of John 14:16-17) He can never leave us. He can never forsake us. It is by the Spirit that Jesus takes his dwelling place in a human heart and never leaves. So, we would not say that that's what's occurred here, but, instead, they have tasted the benefits of the Holy Spirit's ministry.

Keep in mind also that the Spirit is almost always in the New Testament spoken of as the power behind every miracle. Even Jesus' miracles, it says, were done by the Holy Spirit. Peter said that to Cornelius, how Jesus went around doing signs and wonders by the power of the Spirit, so that it is the Spirit that does miracles. I think what it means here is that they had received the benefit of miracles. They had been partakers in these benefits. I mean, again, they might have themselves received physical healing, and by the way on that, physical healing by Jesus doesn't save your soul. You can think about John 5 where the man there is healed and Jesus comes later and warns him and says, "Look, you're well again. Stop sinning, or something worse may happen to you." (Paraphrase of John 5:14) He's not talking to him like a converted man, not at all. “Something worse will happen to you if you don't stop sinning, if you don't repent.” He's physically healed him, but he's not spiritually healed him. I wonder if these people were like that.

Joel

Yeah. Just to round out the list, “Tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come,” (Hebrews 6:5) you've already talked about the power of the age.

Andy

The first would be just again that solid exegesis. They're getting good preaching. They're hearing, they're enlightened. As we talked about earlier, they've had a lot of aha moments. They've tasted the exegesis, and this is what makes the whole thing so dangerous. You go back to them a year later, six months later, it's like you're trying to reach out to them. They've heard it all. They've heard the gospel, God, man, Christ response. They've heard it again and again, and they've turned their backs on the whole thing. There's nothing more that you can do. They have nothing new to say. God sent his son, lived a sinless life, died an atoning death on the cross, was raised from the dead on the third day. If you repent of your sins, repent and believe, you'll have forgiveness of your sins. Yeah, yeah, I heard it all 20 times, 50 times, a hundred times. If you look at that, it says that they have been partakers of the word of God. They've received and heard the preaching and the teaching and the powers of the age to come, by the way, apart from this whole context here, I think it's really very encouraging to think of it this way, that all the miracles, the miracles that Jesus did and the miracles that the apostles did in his name are foretastes of a world to come. They're signs kind of like you're driving to New York City. You're driving to Nashville or something like that, and the sign tells you you're 185 miles away. It means, yeah, you're getting closer there. Next sign you see is 177 miles. You're making progress. The age to come is the new heaven, the new earth, the resurrection age in which we'll be completely healed of all of our sicknesses and of death itself. All these miracles were powers of the age to come. Pretty exciting.

Joel

Yeah. I remember, I think about this story every time I read this text, when I was in seminary, one of my professors, he told the story of a man who always comes in and hears the preaching as a young man, and he's thoroughly convicted. He goes home weeping and just, "Man, that was really a great sermon. The preacher really laid it on heavy today," and he would, "I got to hear some more of that next week." Over the years, he continued under that ministry and it had less effect and, by the time he was older, he said, "The preachers, they don't preach like they used to." My professor said, "No. They still preach like they used to. You just can't hear it anymore." He was talking about the dangers of being unconverted and under a powerful preaching ministry and, in the end, he had a hard heart.

Andy

Yeah, a hard heart, that's the very thing we saw earlier in this book in Hebrews 3, that we have to watch out for the deceitfulness of sin that has the power to harden our hearts. Yeah, I think, as we look at this list here, you're talking about people that were surrounded by the most ardent, fruitful, productive spirit-saturated local church ministry you could imagine, but they were not themselves, it seems, genuinely converted. That's what I make of it. I think, I understand why people from an Arminian point of view say, "How can you say that these people aren't converted. They're enlightened. They've received the spiritual eyesight. Isn't that faith? They've become partakers in the Holy Spirit." I understand, but the key for me is what the author says a few verses later when he says, "Even though we speak like this, beloved, we are confident or persuaded of better things, in your case, things that accompany salvation or things of salvation." (Paraphrase of Hebrews 6:9) In other words, he's saying those things are not proof of salvation. These people were not saved according to the author. I think that settles it for me. That's in verse nine. He didn't think they're saved, so I shouldn't think they're saved either.

Joel

Yeah. How should we think through these words then, "to restore them again to repentance" (Hebrews 6:6)? Obviously, the "restore them again,” did they repent before? What kind of repentance was that before?

Andy

Well, keep in mind there are different kinds of faith. James says there's dead faith and demon faith, and then there's a faith that actually brings life.

Joel

There's different kinds of repentance.

Andy

Yeah, different kinds of repentance, exactly right.  Yeah, I mean, look at Judas. Judas had a kind of repentance, a remorse some people call it. You wish you hadn't done it. People do that kind of thing. That's one way to look at it, "to restore them to repentance", to bring them back, or it could just be external, which is a good thing, to have the external trappings of repentance, the things on your face, the things with your body, your demeanor, your body language and then your actions like Zacchaeus saying, "Here and now, Lord, I give half I possess to the poor. If I've swindled anyone, I will repay it fourfold," (Paraphrase of Luke 19:8) and then he goes and does it. Look, we don't know that he's genuinely born again, but it sure does look good. It could be that external life of repentance that is godly and humble and pious. It's impossible to restore them back to that kind of life. That could be one way to put it, or to get them back even to their shallow level of repentance that they had, not genuine repentance that saved, but to renew them back to the level of repentance they even had before. There's different ways of looking at this.

Joel

Now, it says, "Since they're crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt." (Hebrews 6:6) That's a very confusing phrase, "Crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm". What do you think that means?

Andy

It's pretty difficult. Now, I knew I want to step up out of this and just look at the big picture in the Book of Hebrews. The Book of Hebrews was written to Jewish professors of faith in Christ, people who claim to be Christians. They had the outward trappings of being Christians, they were going to church, all of that, which is a good thing, to have the outward trappings of being a Christian, but it's not a guarantee that you have the inner transformed nature either. It's got to be both. At any rate, they are professors of faith in Christ. They claim to be Christians. They're Jewish, and they're under immense societal pressure, religious pressure, to renounce the New Covenant and go back to Old Covenant Judaism. But the author has made it very plain. He goes right for the jugular right at the beginning when he talks about the Son being the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of His being sustaining all things by his powerful word and, chapter after chapter, talks about the supremacy of Christ because he knows that what you're doing when you're turning back from the New Covenant to the Old Covenant is you're turning your back on Jesus. You're saying Jesus is not the messiah.

"Well, what is He?"

"Well, I don't know. It doesn't matter."

"No. What is he? If Jesus isn't the messiah, what is he?"

"Well, if you're going to push me, then I think he's a deceiver of the people."

"Really? Tell me more. How bad is it?"

"Really bad. Lots of people are following him. Actually, lots of people are blaspheming because they're worshiping him as God. They are worshiping Jesus as God the Son."

Now you're claiming that he's nothing, he's nobody. You're really doing violence to Jesus at this point. You can't just be mild or neutral about Him. You're going to make some pretty strong statements as Jesus' enemies, Jewish enemies did. "He is a deceiver of the people. He's really a murderer of souls. He's a false teacher," and so, once you get in a place that, in order to apostatize in this setting, you are directly attacking Jesus. You're spitting in his face. The author uses this kind of language frankly twice. He uses it here and then again in Hebrews 10, but he says here, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance because, to their loss, they're crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting Him to public disgrace. He doesn't mention that it was Jews that specifically pushed Pilate to do it.

The Gospel of John makes that very, very plain. I think it was a cooperative effort between Jews and Gentiles together. These are the two categories of people we always see in the Book of Romans, whatever, to the Jew first and also to the Gentile, so, basically Jew plus Gentile together conspired to kill Jesus. For this part, these Jewish professors of faith in Christ are now standing with Jesus' enemies, Annas, Caiaphas, Judas, all of these Jewish enemies that hated him and would love to have killed him and did conspire to kill him. Now, these folks, it's after the fact now and it'll never happen again, but it's like, "If I had to choose, I would be among those who crucify him." That's I think what it is. They're basically crucifying him all over again. I'm subjecting him to public disgrace. We'll talk about that later in Hebrews 13 where he was crucified outside the city gate like a pile of manure. He was rejected by his own people. He was despised and hated. These Jewish professors of faith are no longer professors of faith. They don't profess to be Christians. So, what about Jesus? He's worthless. He's like a pile of dung, and so they're crucifying him all over again, subjecting him to public disgrace, but it says, "To their loss." Jesus isn't harmed by it at all. Where is he? He's at the right hand of God. You can't touch him. You can't make him any less glorious. You can't pull him down off his throne. You're not doing anything to Jesus. All of that is just destroying your own soul. That's what they're doing.

Joel

Yeah. I appreciate that. That brings a lot of clarity to that passage. If I could bring that down into one or two sentences, basically, you're saying Jesus is either your Lord or you're casting your lot to crucify him. It can't be a third option. You can't be neutral on him.

Andy

You got to deal with Jesus. Here, let me read the passage from Hebrews 10 because it's the same idea. He said, "How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has," listen to this, "trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified Him and has insulted the Spirit of grace?" (Hebrews 10:29) I mean, that's violent language. Now, again, they're not doing anything to Jesus, but if they could, they would. Ultimately, they're destroying their own souls. It's a very, very serious thing that's going on here.

Joel

Yeah.

Andy

All right. Let's talk about one thing, and that's the beginning of verse six. It says, "If they fall away." (Hebrews 6:6) The image here is one of height that you had attained and you're falling from that height. We sometimes speak of the language of backsliding. I think that's appropriate because, conversely, we speak in Philippians of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. To make progress metaphorically is to go up. You're going up, up, up, always up just like following Jesus in his ascension, I guess. We want to make progress in the Christian life and go higher and higher in the Christian life. The language here of falling away is like you're climbing that beautiful majestic mountain and you lose your grip and you tumble all the way back down to the valley or the ditch below. That's a terrible image here of falling away really from Christ.

"When somebody falls away, they're showing they never really were converted to begin with."

Joel

Now, what does the farmland analogy add to this? He says, "If the land that has drunk the rain." (Paraphrase of Hebrews 6:7) I'm going to take out some of the clauses to make it easier to understand. Basically, if the land drinks rain and produces fruit, it's useful. If it produces thorns, it's all burned. How does that help us to understand really the theme in the New Testament that fruit is the validity of conversion, it's the sign?

Andy

Well, you said it. I mean Jesus said, “By their fruit, you'll know them.” (Paraphrase of Matthew 7:16) The context there was false teachers, but also professors of faith in Christ. Without fruit, there's no life. Fundamentally, there's so many passages that teach this. It's all about the fruit. What kind of fruit do we see?

I've heard one teacher say there's two categories of fruit. There's action fruit and attitude fruit. There's external body fruit, things that you actually do, your actual actions, what you do with your body, but then there's also demeanors and attitudes and things that are going on inside you. You could imagine that you don't act on anything at all. You don't do anything at all, and it's fruit. For example, you're under a terrible temptation toward lust and you put it to death by not acting. You don't do anything or, perhaps, even you act to get out of that situation to run like Joseph did away from Potiphar's wife. Ultimately, you could literally do nothing and it's still fruit because you've been wholly inside your mind and heart, or you could bite your tongue. You want to say something. Somebody said something that really hurts you and insulted you, and you just don't say anything. You just stand firm and you're quiet.

Those two categories, I thought that was helpful, action fruit and attitude fruit. Here's the thing though, no fruit, no life. If there's no action fruit and no attitude fruit, then there's no life. This is the very point that James 2 makes. Without fruit, you're dead. Your faith is meaningless. Faith without works is dead. It does not justify. Basically, this agricultural image, very common, Jesus used agricultural images over and over. The kingdom of heaven is like a farmer who sowed seed and, as he went out, some seed fell here and, at the end, some fell on good soil which produced a crop 100, 60, 30 times of what was sown.

All right, so there's that image and then the kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed which grew and flourished and developed. Also, negatively, you get the image of the cursing of the fig tree where he comes up and there's no fruit and he curses and says, "May you never bear fruit again!" (Matthew 21:19) It's the only negative or damaging supernatural thing Jesus ever did. That's a cursing. We've got many of these agricultural images, but the most important for me with this passage is John 15, "I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit for, apart from me, you can do nothing." (Paraphrase of John 15:5) It says of the Father, Jesus speaks of his Father saying, "I am the true vine, and my father is the gardener [or the vine dresser]," and he says, "He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes or cleans so that it'll be even more fruitful," (John 15:1-2) so fruits, everything. If there's no fruit, what's he going to do? He's going to cut that branch off. Then, in John 15, He says, "The branches that are cut off fall to the ground and wither, and such withered, dead branches are collected and burned in the fire." (Paraphrase of John 15:6 Well, that's about the exact same thing that happens to this field of thorns. It produces no fruit. There's no harvest. It's just thorns. It's not surprising the author reaches for thorns.

Joel

Yeah, thorns is bad in the New Testament. I was reading that this morning.

Andy

When you think about thorns, what are you thinking?

Joel

I was reading this morning the parable of the one who went out and sowed the field and then the evil one came and sowed the thorns, and then said, "Just wait till the end," and then, at the end, they pull up all the thorns and they throw them in the fire.

Andy

Yeah. Of course, I mean you go all the way back to the Garden of Eden, the curse on the ground. He says, "It will produce thorns and thistles for you." (Genesis 3:18) Jesus wore a crown of thorns on his brow to show that he was totally immersed in the curse. He had become a curse for us. The idea here is this is cursed land. That land is cursed. The author even says it right in our text here: the land that receives all of these lavish benefits produces just thorns. It's going to be cursed and burned. That is the language of fruitlessness. It means that the people were not genuinely born again. I think this just cinches the argument. Without fruit, there's no life. If there is genuine fruit, John 15, the vine dresser, the father cleans you, prunes you so that you'll be even more fruitful.

There's some things in all of our lives that are imperfect. There are sins that we commit. There's wasted time. There's efforts that we put toward things that are not going to be of any consequence, eternally. The Lord is active through the Holy Spirit to clean our lives up to sanctify us and make us even more fruitful. I'm just saying, if there's no fruit, there's no faith. James says there's no saving faith. Your faith is dead. If there's no fruit, there's no life. John 15, you're going to be burned in the fire. It all comes down to fruit.

Joel

Yeah, but this author says, "For your case, we feel sure of better things," (Paraphrase of Hebrews 6:9) but he still gave them this really big warning. He still wants to scare them.

Andy

He does, and I'm scared. You should be scared, Joel. We should all be scared. This is a scary chapter. It's a scary book. The Book of Hebrews is meant to scare us. It's meant to warn us. It's meant to warn us about hell. It's meant to warn us about drifting away, turning away and falling away, which are the three stages that we've seen in Hebrews 2, Hebrews 3, and Hebrews 6, apostasy, and it's like for you to say, "Look, I know I could never apostatize. That could never happen to me," that is the kind of complacency and arrogance that this book is meant to destroy.

Joel

Yeah. Paul says, "If anyone thinks he stands, take heed lest he fall." (Paraphrase of 1 Corinthians 10:12)

Andy

Yeah. We are supposed to be scared by this and say, "I don't want to be the kind of person who's surrounded by Christians who's hearing good preaching, who's got so many resources," we're so rich here in America with good Christian evangelical resources, “Who's been super saturated and who produces no fruit.” I think, also, “I don't want to be the kind of person that produces insufficient fruit,” and that's a danger for all of us. We're all going to be I think sad on judgment day that we didn't do more for the Lord. The idea here is that I think fear is appropriate. The author is saying, "I actually have good hopes in your case. I'm not saying this because I think that you are producing thorns and thistles. I actually do see some good fruit in your life. I see some things that are beneficial, and I see the grace of God at work in your life." He is encouraging them, but, you're right, he's also pretty severely warning them.

Joel

They need this warning to spur them on to good works and to faith.

Andy

For sure, for sure, so for me it's just you look at that. I think we need to do that as pastors, as spiritual leaders be able to see, "I've given you a warning, but I also want you to know I see the grace of God at work in your life. I see some fruit." Now, I think it's important for us to know what are the marks of regeneration, what kind of fruit that we want to see. I think we're going to talk about that maybe next time. It's a very, very important thing for us to understand this passage.

Joel

Well, that's a perfect way to conclude it. That actually is exactly what we're going to talk about next time. We'll do episode 13 in Hebrews, which is: “Good Works are the Marks of Regeneration,” where we'll discuss Hebrews 6:9-12. Do you have any final comments, maybe applications for faithful attenders of church that we can apply this message?

Andy

Well, first of all, we need to understand that apostasy from Christ, falling away from Christ is absolutely possible. It is absolutely possible. Think of it this way. If the Lord Jesus Christ stopped praying for you and if the Holy Spirit stopped doing anything toward you, and you had the exact same kind of mental spiritual state and makeup right now, and the world, the flesh, and the devil and his demons could have at you as much as they wanted and God would not protect you, are you telling me you wouldn't fall away? Absolutely you would fall away probably later this afternoon. So great would be the temptations that Satan could orchestrate and the assaults. Look what happened to Job in one day. I mean, horrible.

I feel that it's important for us to realize that our life is a dynamic situation, totally dependent on the ongoing priestly ministry of Jesus Christ. He needs to keep interceding for us. The Holy Spirit needs to keep feeding our faith. We need to keep being strengthened. We need to keep being enlightened. We need to keep tasting of the heavenly gift. We need to keep being around the Holy Spirit. All of these things are important, but, for ourselves, we need to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. This book will give you fear and trembling. It'll have you say, “If I'm not careful about sin, if I'm not watching, very carefully watching and mortifying the deeds of the flesh, I will fall away. If I leave off careful watching, if I leave off prayer, if I leave off Bible intake, if I stop going to church, if I forsake the assembly of myself together, if I don't partake of the means of grace, I will most certainly fall away. I don't want to do that, so I want the Lord to strengthen me in my faith.” Now here's the thing, as a Calvinist, somebody who believes in reformed theology, I believe that everything that's necessary to sustain a truly justified person will happen, but fear is part of that. A healthy fear of falling away is essential to salvation.

Joel

Well, that was episode 12, the book of Hebrews. I would encourage you, if you're listening on the podcast, to go to twojourneys.org. In the book/bible study section, you can download The Book of Hebrews Bible Study Questions for free, and you can read the scriptures on your own and answer some of these same questions yourself. If you're looking for additional study, please go to twojourneys.org and download the free resources. Thank you for listening to the Two Journeys podcast, and God bless you all.