Revelation 12 describes how God protects the infant Jesus and a mysterious woman from Satan’s murderous attacks, foreshadowing the devil’s ultimate demise.
Wes
This is Part 1 of Episode 15 in our Revelation Bible Study podcast entitled The Woman, the Dragon and the Child, where we’ll discuss Revelation 12:1-17.
I’m Wes Treadway and I’m here with Pastor Andy Davis. Andy, what are we going to see in these remarkable verses that we’re looking at today?
Andy
Yeah, this is an incredible chapter. Revelation 12 is one of the great, great chapters on the invisible, spiritual realms. And specifically, Satan and demons, but most especially focused on Satan here. The Book of Revelation means the unveiling. Apocalypse is the removing of a veil, to show us things that we would not be able to see any other way.
And some of the things that are unveiled for us, I guess in this case, I’m saying we’ve got certainly Christ unveiled in a mighty way in the Book of Revelation. And we also have the future unveiled and still in this chapter as well, but here we also have Satan unveiled, and he’s unmasked. He’s revealed here in this chapter concerning his true nature. So, we’re going to walk through this incredible chapter.
I don’t know how far we’re going to get because there’s lots of details here. But what we’re going to see in this chapter, is how despite all of Satan’s incredible power, he is defeated again and again. And again and again, and again in this chapter he is unable to do what he wants to do, and that’s greatly comforting to us.
Wes
Well, let me go ahead and read Revelation 12:1-17.
And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head, a crown of 12 stars. She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth. And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child, he might devour it. She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days.
Now, war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, but he was defeated and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world – he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
And I heard a loud voice in heaven saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God. And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives, even unto death. Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”
And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time. The serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman to sweep her away with a flood. But the earth came to the help of the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river that the dragon had poured from his mouth. Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.
Andy, in verses 1-2, we’re introduced to this woman. I wonder if you can help us understand who is this woman that John sees as a sign in heaven? And what’s the significance of her being pregnant and how is that pregnancy described?
Andy
Well, when we come to Revelation 12, we see right in this chapter some of the great difficulties of interpreting this book. Revelation is difficult to interpret because of the symbolism, and so you look for clues, you look for keys. And the key for me in this whole chapter, is she gives birth to a male child, who will rule over the whole earth. It says that in, I guess, verse 5, “Who rules all the nations with an iron scepter.” And there’s no doubt whatsoever that that’s Jesus. So, then the woman gives birth to Jesus. So therefore, you just work backward at that point, and then you try to make the symbolism fit. So, the easiest interpretation would be Mary, the mother of Jesus, because she is the one who literally gave birth to Jesus.
The problem is the exaltation of this individual. She’s radiantly glorious and she’s in heaven, a sign appearing in heaven, and she’s clothed with the sun. So, there’s that radiant beauty, and then the moon’s under her feet. It’s really an exalted picture here. It’s really difficult to see how any of this could be true of Mary.
I understand that there is a history of Roman Catholic piety directed toward Mary that we Protestants find generally very offensive, or we would oppose it. So, I don’t actually think that that’s what the apostle John or the Holy Spirit is teaching, is that we should reverence or even worship Mary, the mother of Jesus. There are no other indications in the Bible for that, not at all.
So instead, I think we must see that, in some sense, this woman represents the nation of Israel, I believe. I don’t think it can represent the church because how does the church give birth to Jesus? But Jesus was descended from the Jewish nation. From Jesus is traced, we’re told in the Book of Romans [9:5], “the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised. Amen.”
Romans tells us that. So, the woman then probably represents the nation of Israel. And it makes sense in one sense because Israel, the nation of Israel, is from time to time depicted as the bride of Yahweh, for example, in Ezekiel 16 and again in Ezekiel 23. And also, Hosea, the whole Book of Hosea, depicts – Hosea has to marry Gomer. And she represents a faithless Israel.
So, in this case, however, Israel is not presented as faithless or sinful at all or wicked, as in those visions, but here holy, and beautiful and radiant. So also, we got the number 12, the 12 stars are on her head, so this is an idealized picture of the Jewish nation. And given what ends up happening in the chapter, it seems very much like the woman represents Israel in a converted, glorified state.
So, I’ll put it this way, in a state of having become in a right relationship with God. And that can only happen through faith in Christ. So, I would just say this is an idealized picture of Israel, as it gave birth to the human ancestor, Jesus, as the Son of Man, the human being, Jesus. So, the image then is she’s in heaven, she’s radiantly beautiful, shining like the sun.
The moon is beneath her feet, and so I think that just means she’s great. We’ve got the 12 stars representing, I think in my interpretation, the 12 tribes of Israel. I also want to talk about verse 2 where it says she’s pregnant and in labor and she’s giving birth. So, if the woman does represent Israel, it shows how difficult it was for Israel to finally in the end give birth to Jesus.
It was through many dangers, toils and snares that the nation of Israel finally produced the Messiah.
It was through many dangers, toils and snares that the nation of Israel finally produced the Messiah. So, we think about, for example, Pharaoh trying to kill all the male babies and all of the persecutions, the Assyrian and Babylonian exiles, all of that. It was a hard, hard journey that led eventually to the birth of Jesus, so that’s verse 2.
Wes
Now that’s the first sign that we come to here in Revelation 12. How is the next sign, the dragon, described? And who is this dragon in verse 3?
Andy
The second sign that you mentioned here, is the sign of an enormous red dragon. And again, we look for the clues and we don’t have to work hard on this one. Verse 9 tells us exactly who the dragon is. So, in verse 9 it says, “The great dragon, the ancient serpent called the devil or Satan.” And by the way, the word serpent here is very important.
Because there’s no other place, I believe, in the entire Bible, where we are clearly told who the snake was in the garden of Eden. We have an instinct, and who else could it be? But here in this verse with that word, ancient serpent, we have to think then we’re told that he is Satan or the devil. So, the great dragon here depicted in Revelation 12, an enormous red dragon represents Satan.
Wes
At the end of the verse, we get this imagery that includes some numbers, 7, 10. What’s the significance of the numbers seven and 10, as in seven heads, 10 horns, seven crowns? And what’s the nature of Satan’s authority in this passage?
Andy
Yeah. I don’t know if I can do a lot of work on 7 and 10. And why seven and why 10? I think the image definitely comes from Daniel 7. And I think this speaks of Satan’s control over the entire earth, over the kingdoms of the world, which he said in Matthew 4 and in Luke 4:6 also in the temptation of Jesus in the desert, “The entire world, all of the kingdoms of the world and their splendor has been given to me and I can give it to anyone I want to.” He really is the God of this age. He rules over every nation on earth. Now, we’re going to see in the next chapter, the Antichrist, the beast from the sea is going to rule over all of those nations.
And again, that’s that little horn that rises up, that basically topples everything else. And then ends up ruling over everything, in terms of that fourth and final most terrifying beast. So, the idea here is the dragon runs planet Earth and all of its empires, all of its kingdoms, and specifically, he has tremendous power.
He’s enormous, so he’s physically large. He’s red, which I think represents the color of bloodshed and perhaps of war. So, this is a terrifying image of Satan in his secret authority and power over all the kingdoms of this world.
Wes
What does it mean that the devil swept away a third of the stars from heaven with his tail and flung them to the earth? What does that represent?
Andy
Well, in the Book of Job God, when he appears to Job and speaks to him out of the whirlwind, talks about the creation of the world and the foundations of the earth being laid, while all the morning stars sang for joy. And most people think that the morning stars that sang for joy were angels, so these stars, I think, represent angels.
And his tail sweeping a third of them and flinging them to earth, in that I believe both Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28, talk about Satan himself being cast of the earth. And we’ll talk more about that later, but the casting to the earth represents fallen angels. And the symbolism here, I think, is just we’re talking about demons.
So, we’re talking about demons or unclean spirits, who are angels, who have been thrown from their heavenly position, and roam the earth doing damage. Also, the number third shows us just a sense of just how many demons there might really be. 100 million angels are on the throne in a couple of passages, one in Daniel and one in another place.
100 million angels or myriads of myriads, and so we’re looking at 30, 40 million demons. In Ezekiel 1, the cherubim, they move fast, and so demons can get around. And they’re like flashes of lightning, this kind of thing. So, the kind of thing that it just shows the kind of power they have.
Wes
How does 12:4 then picture the dragon before the woman? And what does it teach us about the devil’s attitude toward God’s people in general, babies, and about the Christ in particular?
Andy
Right. Well, the dragon is portrayed as bloodthirsty here. He wants to devour the male child the moment he’s born. That’s Jesus, but in general, it’s tragic. But one of the things we’ve seen across the pagan religions of history, is how bloodthirsty these wicked pagan religions are. There’s a lot of child sacrifice.
So, for example, Chemosh and Molech, these terrifying pagan gods, were bloodthirsty gods. And they were looking for human blood. And we also know that none of those gods were real, but the demons that impersonated them, now they were. And the sacrifices offered to idols, Paul says, are offered to demons.
So, demons do impersonate gods and goddesses of various types. And eventually that tribe might die out, and that god flickers and goes out. But the demon then goes off and impersonates another god another time, but they are bloodthirsty. So, what this shows me, is how much Satan is, as Jesus says, a murderer from the beginning.
He (Satan) wants to kill all human beings. He doesn’t have any favorite people. I think about this in terms of Nazi Germany invading Soviet Russia. And it’s not like there were good guys and bad guys. I’m not saying there weren’t genuine believers in either of those armies, that’s not my point. My point is Satan moved one evil empire against another evil empire so he could kill them all.
He’s just bloodthirsty. He’s a bloodthirsty person. I think it also says something about the modern battle, pro-life battle on abortion. I think that Satan is bloodthirsty for embryos, for human beings that are still in the womb. He’s a bloodthirsty being. One of the most wicked and evil places I’ve ever been was an abortuary, a clinic that did abortions on Saturday mornings.
And I used to go in Brookline, Massachusetts and I felt an overt, powerful demonic presence there. I’ll never forget, we’d be there from early in the morning until about noon. And I would get in my car and drive way too fast away from that place. And my heart rate was pounding, and I felt afflicted. I would go home Saturday afternoon about 1:30, and I would sleep for the rest of the afternoon.
I was overwhelmed by how evil the place was. So, I think we need to see in the modern pro-life battle, it’s a battle against spiritual forces of evil and the heavenly realms. Satan and demons are bloodthirsty. In this particular case, however, it’s focused on one baby in particular, and that must be Jesus Christ.
Now, concerning the focus on this one baby that’s going to be born. We’re told, we know that he’s talking about Jesus because verse 5 says it. I don’t know, we’ll talk about that in a minute, but he wants to devour Jesus and kill him the moment he’s born. So, first of all, he knows what’s going on on earth. He’s very aware. He knows that Mary’s a virgin. He knows it, he knows what she’s done. He knows that Joseph hasn’t been with her.
And he knows that she’s pregnant, and he knows what the angels said, and he knows everything. He knows the prophecies. He knows who this baby is. The demons say it to Jesus, “We know who you are, the Holy one of God.” There’s no doubt, and so he wants to kill him. So, he moves his puppet king Herod, who’s a wicked man. Herod the Great was one of the truly wicked tyrants of history. He just had his own son killed; he’s a very, very bad man. Even the Romans said he was an evil person. But he moved him out of jealousy. Satan was jealous, and Herod was jealous to make certain when the Magi came and said, “Where is he, who was born King of the Jews? We saw a star in the east and have come to worship him” (Matthew 2:2).
He found out from them, from the priests, where the Christ was to be born – in Bethlehem. And he made arrangements to find out from the Magi where, but they were warned not to go back. So, Herod moves out and kills all the boy babies in Bethlehem in his vicinity who are two years old and under in accordance with the time he had heard from the Magi. And this is Herod moved by Satan being bloodthirsty and trying to kill Jesus, but he failed.
Wes
What does verse 5 teach us about Christ and about the power of God compared to the power of Satan?
Andy
Well, first of all, it’s an incarnation verse. She, the woman, gives birth to a male child, so Jesus was born in the normal way. He is a normal human being. He was a baby born of the virgin Mary. He was truly, completely, absolutely human. And every bit as much human as he was God, and every bit as much God as he was human. So, he is given a privilege because he is the Son of Man.
He is given the privilege also as Son of God to rule all the nations with an iron scepter. So ultimately, government is in view here. We’re going to see this in the next chapter. The Antichrist is given power over all the nations of the earth to rule them. And he will rule them with his own version of an iron scepter with tyranny.
But Jesus, when it says he will rule them with an iron scepter, are directly quoting Psalm 2:9, where it says, “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” And it’s going to quote that again at the second coming of Christ in Revelation 19. When it speaks of Jesus ruling with an iron scepter, the word iron and scepter, the scepter represents his kingly rule, and iron means you can’t break it.
So that fundamentally goes back to the image in the Book of Jeremiah (28) where Jeremiah was wearing a yoke, symbolizing the yoke of the king of Babylon. And this false prophet took the yoke off Jeremiah’s neck and broke it saying, “In this way, God will break the authority of the king of Babylon.” And he said, “All right. Well, this is what the Lord says to you. You’ve broken a wooden yoke, but he’s going to put an iron yoke on you that you cannot break.”
an absolute, sovereign reign of Jesus that cannot be broken. …God orchestrates that Jesus be protected, and he does that by sending a dream to Joseph in the middle of the night.
So, this is an idea of an absolute, sovereign reign of Jesus that cannot be broken. Also, we see, and we’re going to see this again and again in the chapter, how Satan fails and fails, and fails and fails. So here, God orchestrates that Jesus be protected, and he does that by sending a dream to Joseph in the middle of the night.
“Get up, take the child and his mother and escape to Egypt, for Herod is going to search for the child to try to kill him” (Matthew 2:13). So, through angelic intervention, Joseph gets out of town just in time with the baby Jesus, and that’s enough. And that’s the whole thing, it’s interesting how Jesus’s lineage from Judah on down, at one point, hung by a slender thread.
A baby that was hidden by a nursemaid behind a curtain somewhere, when all the other descendants of David were slaughtered. There were none left except that one baby, that was enough (2 Chronicles 22). And it’s just like Satan can get real close, but it’s not enough. So, God sovereignly protects Jesus and does it in a very simple way. He just warns Joseph, and Joseph does his job.
He doesn’t send 100 million angels down to surround Jesus. Or like Elijah with the chariots of fire, he doesn’t do that. He just gets him out of town.
Wes
In verse 6, we read that the woman fled into the wilderness where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days. What is the significance of the woman’s flight here in verse six? And how about that length of time? We’ve heard similar periods of time, but what’s the significance of that?
Andy
Well, here we see again the complexity of the Book of Revelation, because we’ve gone from the birth of Jesus to the protection of the woman, and the key here is the number, 1,260. Now what is that? That’s 42 months of 30-month days. That’s the standard, prophetic calendar length. So, 30 days you multiply it out, or as Daniel gives us, a time, times and half a time. So, you get that three and a half years, 1,260 days, that’s end-time stuff.
That’s the end of the world stuff. So now we’ve jumped ahead from the birth of Jesus and how Herod tried to kill him but couldn’t, to the end of the world where the woman is protected and kept safe. So, let’s stick with the idea that this represents Israel. And I bring in also the insight that we have from Paul in Romans 11 where it says, “All Israel will be saved.” The way I put it altogether, and this is very complex.
But this represents Jewish believers in Christ, who initially having been deeply disappointed at the Antichrist breaking a covenant, according to Daniel 9, concerning animal sacrifice in the rebuilding of the temple. Where the Antichrist sets himself up in God’s temple proclaiming himself to be God, they now are totally disillusioned. Stripped of any illusion that Antichrist is going to help them reestablish old covenant Judaism, they give up on all that.
Then God will take godlessness and unbelief away from Israel. And will move them probably through the two witnesses that are prophesying there in the city of Jerusalem where Jesus died, we’re told in Revelation 11. So, they are listening to the preaching, they’re reading the prophecies, and they come to Christ. And now they are believers in Jesus, but they’re also Jewish.
They’re living there in Jerusalem. And the Antichrist turns his satanic guns on them, and they have to flee. They have to run for their lives. And this is where you get to Matthew 24, Mark 13 and other passages that basically say, “When you see the abomination of desolation, run for your lives.” What are they running from? They’ve got to be running from human beings. So, you’re not going to have time to go back and get your cloak.
You’re not going to have time to go back to get any possessions. It’s going to be hard for pregnant women and nursing mothers. I look on this as a flight for your life from satanic forces, but they’re human beings and they’re chasing them. So, she runs to a place in the desert where she is protected and cared for, for that length of time.
And by the way, that counting of days, you’d definitely get in Daniel 12 where they’re counting down those days. And Jesus said, “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive.”
Wes
Andy, as you mentioned, there’s so much in this passage and we’re going to need to continue this conversation next time.
So, we want to invite you to join us next time for Part 2 of Episode 15, entitled The Woman, the Dragon and the Child, where we’ll continue our discussion of Revelation 12:1-17. Thank you for listening to the Two Journeys podcast and may the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all.
Wes
This is Part 1 of Episode 15 in our Revelation Bible Study podcast entitled The Woman, the Dragon and the Child, where we’ll discuss Revelation 12:1-17.
I’m Wes Treadway and I’m here with Pastor Andy Davis. Andy, what are we going to see in these remarkable verses that we’re looking at today?
Andy
Yeah, this is an incredible chapter. Revelation 12 is one of the great, great chapters on the invisible, spiritual realms. And specifically, Satan and demons, but most especially focused on Satan here. The Book of Revelation means the unveiling. Apocalypse is the removing of a veil, to show us things that we would not be able to see any other way.
And some of the things that are unveiled for us, I guess in this case, I’m saying we’ve got certainly Christ unveiled in a mighty way in the Book of Revelation. And we also have the future unveiled and still in this chapter as well, but here we also have Satan unveiled, and he’s unmasked. He’s revealed here in this chapter concerning his true nature. So, we’re going to walk through this incredible chapter.
I don’t know how far we’re going to get because there’s lots of details here. But what we’re going to see in this chapter, is how despite all of Satan’s incredible power, he is defeated again and again. And again and again, and again in this chapter he is unable to do what he wants to do, and that’s greatly comforting to us.
Wes
Well, let me go ahead and read Revelation 12:1-17.
And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head, a crown of 12 stars. She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth. And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child, he might devour it. She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days.
Now, war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, but he was defeated and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world – he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
And I heard a loud voice in heaven saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God. And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives, even unto death. Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”
And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time. The serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman to sweep her away with a flood. But the earth came to the help of the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river that the dragon had poured from his mouth. Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.
Andy, in verses 1-2, we’re introduced to this woman. I wonder if you can help us understand who is this woman that John sees as a sign in heaven? And what’s the significance of her being pregnant and how is that pregnancy described?
Andy
Well, when we come to Revelation 12, we see right in this chapter some of the great difficulties of interpreting this book. Revelation is difficult to interpret because of the symbolism, and so you look for clues, you look for keys. And the key for me in this whole chapter, is she gives birth to a male child, who will rule over the whole earth. It says that in, I guess, verse 5, “Who rules all the nations with an iron scepter.” And there’s no doubt whatsoever that that’s Jesus. So, then the woman gives birth to Jesus. So therefore, you just work backward at that point, and then you try to make the symbolism fit. So, the easiest interpretation would be Mary, the mother of Jesus, because she is the one who literally gave birth to Jesus.
The problem is the exaltation of this individual. She’s radiantly glorious and she’s in heaven, a sign appearing in heaven, and she’s clothed with the sun. So, there’s that radiant beauty, and then the moon’s under her feet. It’s really an exalted picture here. It’s really difficult to see how any of this could be true of Mary.
I understand that there is a history of Roman Catholic piety directed toward Mary that we Protestants find generally very offensive, or we would oppose it. So, I don’t actually think that that’s what the apostle John or the Holy Spirit is teaching, is that we should reverence or even worship Mary, the mother of Jesus. There are no other indications in the Bible for that, not at all.
So instead, I think we must see that, in some sense, this woman represents the nation of Israel, I believe. I don’t think it can represent the church because how does the church give birth to Jesus? But Jesus was descended from the Jewish nation. From Jesus is traced, we’re told in the Book of Romans [9:5], “the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised. Amen.”
Romans tells us that. So, the woman then probably represents the nation of Israel. And it makes sense in one sense because Israel, the nation of Israel, is from time to time depicted as the bride of Yahweh, for example, in Ezekiel 16 and again in Ezekiel 23. And also, Hosea, the whole Book of Hosea, depicts – Hosea has to marry Gomer. And she represents a faithless Israel.
So, in this case, however, Israel is not presented as faithless or sinful at all or wicked, as in those visions, but here holy, and beautiful and radiant. So also, we got the number 12, the 12 stars are on her head, so this is an idealized picture of the Jewish nation. And given what ends up happening in the chapter, it seems very much like the woman represents Israel in a converted, glorified state.
So, I’ll put it this way, in a state of having become in a right relationship with God. And that can only happen through faith in Christ. So, I would just say this is an idealized picture of Israel, as it gave birth to the human ancestor, Jesus, as the Son of Man, the human being, Jesus. So, the image then is she’s in heaven, she’s radiantly beautiful, shining like the sun.
The moon is beneath her feet, and so I think that just means she’s great. We’ve got the 12 stars representing, I think in my interpretation, the 12 tribes of Israel. I also want to talk about verse 2 where it says she’s pregnant and in labor and she’s giving birth. So, if the woman does represent Israel, it shows how difficult it was for Israel to finally in the end give birth to Jesus.
It was through many dangers, toils and snares that the nation of Israel finally produced the Messiah.
It was through many dangers, toils and snares that the nation of Israel finally produced the Messiah. So, we think about, for example, Pharaoh trying to kill all the male babies and all of the persecutions, the Assyrian and Babylonian exiles, all of that. It was a hard, hard journey that led eventually to the birth of Jesus, so that’s verse 2.
Wes
Now that’s the first sign that we come to here in Revelation 12. How is the next sign, the dragon, described? And who is this dragon in verse 3?
Andy
The second sign that you mentioned here, is the sign of an enormous red dragon. And again, we look for the clues and we don’t have to work hard on this one. Verse 9 tells us exactly who the dragon is. So, in verse 9 it says, “The great dragon, the ancient serpent called the devil or Satan.” And by the way, the word serpent here is very important.
Because there’s no other place, I believe, in the entire Bible, where we are clearly told who the snake was in the garden of Eden. We have an instinct, and who else could it be? But here in this verse with that word, ancient serpent, we have to think then we’re told that he is Satan or the devil. So, the great dragon here depicted in Revelation 12, an enormous red dragon represents Satan.
Wes
At the end of the verse, we get this imagery that includes some numbers, 7, 10. What’s the significance of the numbers seven and 10, as in seven heads, 10 horns, seven crowns? And what’s the nature of Satan’s authority in this passage?
Andy
Yeah. I don’t know if I can do a lot of work on 7 and 10. And why seven and why 10? I think the image definitely comes from Daniel 7. And I think this speaks of Satan’s control over the entire earth, over the kingdoms of the world, which he said in Matthew 4 and in Luke 4:6 also in the temptation of Jesus in the desert, “The entire world, all of the kingdoms of the world and their splendor has been given to me and I can give it to anyone I want to.” He really is the God of this age. He rules over every nation on earth. Now, we’re going to see in the next chapter, the Antichrist, the beast from the sea is going to rule over all of those nations.
And again, that’s that little horn that rises up, that basically topples everything else. And then ends up ruling over everything, in terms of that fourth and final most terrifying beast. So, the idea here is the dragon runs planet Earth and all of its empires, all of its kingdoms, and specifically, he has tremendous power.
He’s enormous, so he’s physically large. He’s red, which I think represents the color of bloodshed and perhaps of war. So, this is a terrifying image of Satan in his secret authority and power over all the kingdoms of this world.
Wes
What does it mean that the devil swept away a third of the stars from heaven with his tail and flung them to the earth? What does that represent?
Andy
Well, in the Book of Job God, when he appears to Job and speaks to him out of the whirlwind, talks about the creation of the world and the foundations of the earth being laid, while all the morning stars sang for joy. And most people think that the morning stars that sang for joy were angels, so these stars, I think, represent angels.
And his tail sweeping a third of them and flinging them to earth, in that I believe both Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28, talk about Satan himself being cast of the earth. And we’ll talk more about that later, but the casting to the earth represents fallen angels. And the symbolism here, I think, is just we’re talking about demons.
So, we’re talking about demons or unclean spirits, who are angels, who have been thrown from their heavenly position, and roam the earth doing damage. Also, the number third shows us just a sense of just how many demons there might really be. 100 million angels are on the throne in a couple of passages, one in Daniel and one in another place.
100 million angels or myriads of myriads, and so we’re looking at 30, 40 million demons. In Ezekiel 1, the cherubim, they move fast, and so demons can get around. And they’re like flashes of lightning, this kind of thing. So, the kind of thing that it just shows the kind of power they have.
Wes
How does 12:4 then picture the dragon before the woman? And what does it teach us about the devil’s attitude toward God’s people in general, babies, and about the Christ in particular?
Andy
Right. Well, the dragon is portrayed as bloodthirsty here. He wants to devour the male child the moment he’s born. That’s Jesus, but in general, it’s tragic. But one of the things we’ve seen across the pagan religions of history, is how bloodthirsty these wicked pagan religions are. There’s a lot of child sacrifice.
So, for example, Chemosh and Molech, these terrifying pagan gods, were bloodthirsty gods. And they were looking for human blood. And we also know that none of those gods were real, but the demons that impersonated them, now they were. And the sacrifices offered to idols, Paul says, are offered to demons.
So, demons do impersonate gods and goddesses of various types. And eventually that tribe might die out, and that god flickers and goes out. But the demon then goes off and impersonates another god another time, but they are bloodthirsty. So, what this shows me, is how much Satan is, as Jesus says, a murderer from the beginning.
He (Satan) wants to kill all human beings. He doesn’t have any favorite people. I think about this in terms of Nazi Germany invading Soviet Russia. And it’s not like there were good guys and bad guys. I’m not saying there weren’t genuine believers in either of those armies, that’s not my point. My point is Satan moved one evil empire against another evil empire so he could kill them all.
He’s just bloodthirsty. He’s a bloodthirsty person. I think it also says something about the modern battle, pro-life battle on abortion. I think that Satan is bloodthirsty for embryos, for human beings that are still in the womb. He’s a bloodthirsty being. One of the most wicked and evil places I’ve ever been was an abortuary, a clinic that did abortions on Saturday mornings.
And I used to go in Brookline, Massachusetts and I felt an overt, powerful demonic presence there. I’ll never forget, we’d be there from early in the morning until about noon. And I would get in my car and drive way too fast away from that place. And my heart rate was pounding, and I felt afflicted. I would go home Saturday afternoon about 1:30, and I would sleep for the rest of the afternoon.
I was overwhelmed by how evil the place was. So, I think we need to see in the modern pro-life battle, it’s a battle against spiritual forces of evil and the heavenly realms. Satan and demons are bloodthirsty. In this particular case, however, it’s focused on one baby in particular, and that must be Jesus Christ.
Now, concerning the focus on this one baby that’s going to be born. We’re told, we know that he’s talking about Jesus because verse 5 says it. I don’t know, we’ll talk about that in a minute, but he wants to devour Jesus and kill him the moment he’s born. So, first of all, he knows what’s going on on earth. He’s very aware. He knows that Mary’s a virgin. He knows it, he knows what she’s done. He knows that Joseph hasn’t been with her.
And he knows that she’s pregnant, and he knows what the angels said, and he knows everything. He knows the prophecies. He knows who this baby is. The demons say it to Jesus, “We know who you are, the Holy one of God.” There’s no doubt, and so he wants to kill him. So, he moves his puppet king Herod, who’s a wicked man. Herod the Great was one of the truly wicked tyrants of history. He just had his own son killed; he’s a very, very bad man. Even the Romans said he was an evil person. But he moved him out of jealousy. Satan was jealous, and Herod was jealous to make certain when the Magi came and said, “Where is he, who was born King of the Jews? We saw a star in the east and have come to worship him” (Matthew 2:2).
He found out from them, from the priests, where the Christ was to be born – in Bethlehem. And he made arrangements to find out from the Magi where, but they were warned not to go back. So, Herod moves out and kills all the boy babies in Bethlehem in his vicinity who are two years old and under in accordance with the time he had heard from the Magi. And this is Herod moved by Satan being bloodthirsty and trying to kill Jesus, but he failed.
Wes
What does verse 5 teach us about Christ and about the power of God compared to the power of Satan?
Andy
Well, first of all, it’s an incarnation verse. She, the woman, gives birth to a male child, so Jesus was born in the normal way. He is a normal human being. He was a baby born of the virgin Mary. He was truly, completely, absolutely human. And every bit as much human as he was God, and every bit as much God as he was human. So, he is given a privilege because he is the Son of Man.
He is given the privilege also as Son of God to rule all the nations with an iron scepter. So ultimately, government is in view here. We’re going to see this in the next chapter. The Antichrist is given power over all the nations of the earth to rule them. And he will rule them with his own version of an iron scepter with tyranny.
But Jesus, when it says he will rule them with an iron scepter, are directly quoting Psalm 2:9, where it says, “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” And it’s going to quote that again at the second coming of Christ in Revelation 19. When it speaks of Jesus ruling with an iron scepter, the word iron and scepter, the scepter represents his kingly rule, and iron means you can’t break it.
So that fundamentally goes back to the image in the Book of Jeremiah (28) where Jeremiah was wearing a yoke, symbolizing the yoke of the king of Babylon. And this false prophet took the yoke off Jeremiah’s neck and broke it saying, “In this way, God will break the authority of the king of Babylon.” And he said, “All right. Well, this is what the Lord says to you. You’ve broken a wooden yoke, but he’s going to put an iron yoke on you that you cannot break.”
an absolute, sovereign reign of Jesus that cannot be broken. …God orchestrates that Jesus be protected, and he does that by sending a dream to Joseph in the middle of the night.
So, this is an idea of an absolute, sovereign reign of Jesus that cannot be broken. Also, we see, and we’re going to see this again and again in the chapter, how Satan fails and fails, and fails and fails. So here, God orchestrates that Jesus be protected, and he does that by sending a dream to Joseph in the middle of the night.
“Get up, take the child and his mother and escape to Egypt, for Herod is going to search for the child to try to kill him” (Matthew 2:13). So, through angelic intervention, Joseph gets out of town just in time with the baby Jesus, and that’s enough. And that’s the whole thing, it’s interesting how Jesus’s lineage from Judah on down, at one point, hung by a slender thread.
A baby that was hidden by a nursemaid behind a curtain somewhere, when all the other descendants of David were slaughtered. There were none left except that one baby, that was enough (2 Chronicles 22). And it’s just like Satan can get real close, but it’s not enough. So, God sovereignly protects Jesus and does it in a very simple way. He just warns Joseph, and Joseph does his job.
He doesn’t send 100 million angels down to surround Jesus. Or like Elijah with the chariots of fire, he doesn’t do that. He just gets him out of town.
Wes
In verse 6, we read that the woman fled into the wilderness where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days. What is the significance of the woman’s flight here in verse six? And how about that length of time? We’ve heard similar periods of time, but what’s the significance of that?
Andy
Well, here we see again the complexity of the Book of Revelation, because we’ve gone from the birth of Jesus to the protection of the woman, and the key here is the number, 1,260. Now what is that? That’s 42 months of 30-month days. That’s the standard, prophetic calendar length. So, 30 days you multiply it out, or as Daniel gives us, a time, times and half a time. So, you get that three and a half years, 1,260 days, that’s end-time stuff.
That’s the end of the world stuff. So now we’ve jumped ahead from the birth of Jesus and how Herod tried to kill him but couldn’t, to the end of the world where the woman is protected and kept safe. So, let’s stick with the idea that this represents Israel. And I bring in also the insight that we have from Paul in Romans 11 where it says, “All Israel will be saved.” The way I put it altogether, and this is very complex.
But this represents Jewish believers in Christ, who initially having been deeply disappointed at the Antichrist breaking a covenant, according to Daniel 9, concerning animal sacrifice in the rebuilding of the temple. Where the Antichrist sets himself up in God’s temple proclaiming himself to be God, they now are totally disillusioned. Stripped of any illusion that Antichrist is going to help them reestablish old covenant Judaism, they give up on all that.
Then God will take godlessness and unbelief away from Israel. And will move them probably through the two witnesses that are prophesying there in the city of Jerusalem where Jesus died, we’re told in Revelation 11. So, they are listening to the preaching, they’re reading the prophecies, and they come to Christ. And now they are believers in Jesus, but they’re also Jewish.
They’re living there in Jerusalem. And the Antichrist turns his satanic guns on them, and they have to flee. They have to run for their lives. And this is where you get to Matthew 24, Mark 13 and other passages that basically say, “When you see the abomination of desolation, run for your lives.” What are they running from? They’ve got to be running from human beings. So, you’re not going to have time to go back and get your cloak.
You’re not going to have time to go back to get any possessions. It’s going to be hard for pregnant women and nursing mothers. I look on this as a flight for your life from satanic forces, but they’re human beings and they’re chasing them. So, she runs to a place in the desert where she is protected and cared for, for that length of time.
And by the way, that counting of days, you’d definitely get in Daniel 12 where they’re counting down those days. And Jesus said, “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive.”
Wes
Andy, as you mentioned, there’s so much in this passage and we’re going to need to continue this conversation next time.
So, we want to invite you to join us next time for Part 2 of Episode 15, entitled The Woman, the Dragon and the Child, where we’ll continue our discussion of Revelation 12:1-17. Thank you for listening to the Two Journeys podcast and may the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all.
