In Revelation 6:9-17, the fifth and sixth seals relate events: martyrdom and a cry for vengeance, an earthquake and celestial portents, and a cry for refuge from the wrath of the Lamb.
Wes
Welcome to the Two Journeys Bible Study podcast. This podcast is just one of the many resources available to you for free from Two Journeys Ministry. If you’re interested in learning more, just head over to twojourneys.org. Now, on to today’s episode. This is Episode 8 in our Revelation Bible Study podcast entitled The Fifth and Sixth Seals, where we’ll discuss Revelation 6:9-17. I’m Wes Treadway, and I’m here with Pastor Andy Davis. Andy, what are we going to see in these verses that we’re looking at today?
Andy
Well, these are some of the most dramatic moments in the Book of Revelation. They happen early in Revelation, Revelation 6, with the breaking open of the seven seals, and this is the fifth and sixth seal that are broken open by Jesus. And we’re going to see martyrdom, and then we’re going to see the end of the cosmos, the end of the earth as we know it. And so, we’re going to talk about those cataclysmic events and how they fit into God’s ultimate plan.
Wes
Well, let me go ahead and read verses 9-17 in Revelation 6.
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. They cried out with a loud voice, “O, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been. When he opened the sixth seal, I looked and behold there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale.
The sky vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”
Andy, what does John see when Christ opened the fifth seal and where is the scene set?
Andy
Well, what we’ve seen about the seals in general is that the scroll is in the right hand of God. He gives it to Christ. It’s sealed with seven seals, and as he breaks open the seals in heaven, things happen on earth. And so, Jesus has the authority to initiate the eschatological or end-time events that the Book of Revelation covers. And we saw the first four seals lined up with the famous four horsemen of the apocalypse, which represent effects on earth as we discussed last time. Now, with the fifth seal, we have a depiction of martyrs. Now, the scene is in heaven; the martyrs are in heaven; they’re under the altar in heaven, and they’re crying out for vengeance as we’ll talk about. But clearly their time on earth ended with their own martyrdom, so the focus is on heavenly scene. But they are focused on earth, and they are aware of what is or is not happening on earth. So, the focus is in heaven, and the initiation is with Christ.
Wes
You mentioned this, but remind us again who are the souls slain for the word of God and their testimony, and do they have their resurrection bodies at this point?
Andy
Yeah, so these are servants of God, saints, they would be called, who are martyred, I believe, under the effect of the Antichrist’s rule. It could represent, frankly, martyrs in every era. Because if we look at the uncertain signs of the end in Matthew 24, wars, rumors of wars, famines, earthquakes in various places, and then, “You’ll be persecuted by all and be hated by all on account of me.” Well, that happens in every generation. So, this could be martyrs in every generation. It could be eschatological martyrs or martyrs right before the end. In any case, there’s no intrinsic difference. It’s just a great ramping up of the miseries that happen toward the end of the world, so there are martyrs in every generation. And so fundamentally, these are individuals who live for the glory of God and were faithful in their testimony of Jesus and paid for it with their lives. Now, what really strikes me and it’s very noteworthy, is that Jesus initiates the events that lead to their martyrdom.
And so, the plan, the sovereign plan of God includes the slaughter of his own beloved people. And that is very precious to him, as the scripture says, “Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of his saints” (Psalm 166:15). And especially precious is the death of those who are dying directly for his kingdom, for the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. And so fundamentally he is interested in that, and yet he is the one who initiates the events that bring it about. So, what we have to see all the time with the connection between the sovereignty of God and human responsibility is God makes the plan, but human beings are responsible for what they have done, and that’s exactly what’s going on here. The martyrs are crying out for vengeance concerning their earthly enemies who slaughtered them unjustly. These are individuals who didn’t do anything wrong, and yet they were slaughtered. And so, they’re crying out for vengeance.
“The connection between the sovereignty of God and human responsibility is [that] God makes the plan, but human beings are responsible for what they have done.”
We also need to deal with the question that you raised concerning their resurrection bodies, and I believe that the resurrection of the body happens at the second coming of Christ. This is very clearly taught in 1 Thessalonians 4 and also in 1 Corinthians 15. So no, I don’t think they have their resurrection bodies yet because then the second coming of Christ is depicted in the Book of Revelation in chapter 19, and we’re not even close to that. These are ongoing events. Other things are yet to happen, so no, they’re absent from the body, and they’re present with the Lord. One might well ask then, “What do they need with white robes?” And I think what we need to understand is the white robes are definitely at least symbolic, if not physical. And so, they are symbolic of the imputed righteousness of Christ, as he counseled the church at Laodicea to buy robes that will cover your shameful nakedness.
And this represents that covering that the imputed righteousness of Christ gives all of us sinners, knowing that we do not have to stand accountable on Judgment Day ultimately for all of our sins. But we are covered as Psalm 32 says, “Blessed is a man whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered.” And so, this white robe throughout the Book of Revelation represents the imputed righteousness of Christ and the covering that the saints in heaven have experienced through their faith in Christ. So, I believe they’re absent from the body, present with the Lord, waiting for the vengeance that the Lord has promised, which we’ll talk about in a moment, I’m sure. But they don’t have their resurrection bodies yet.
Wes
What’s the significance of the fact that John sees them under the altar?
Andy
Well, this is a physical posture that’s well known to readers of the Old Testament where you see individuals will flee into the tabernacle or the temple and take hold of the horns of the altar, and they’re basically making appeal to heaven for protection. And so, there’s numbers of times that this occurs. And so, this is a picture of the martyrs appealing to God for vengeance, and they’re crying out for it. They want it and they yearn for vengeance, so the picture of them being under the altar is appealing to the sovereign God, their heavenly Father, and to the Lord to avenge them.
Wes
How should we understand this cry for vindication? I mean we have other instances in scripture such as Jesus saying, “Father, forgive them,” when he is faced with his accusers, with those who put him to death, and Stephen saying, “Lord, do not lay this sin to their charge,” each speaking about their persecutors. How should we understand this cry for vindication?
Andy
Well, it is a reasonable desire that they have, and there’s nothing wicked about it. Clearly, it’s not rebuked. Jesus doesn’t rebuke them. On earth, when Jesus was ministering, and he came to a certain Samaritan village and he was resolutely setting out for Jerusalem but was stopping at this Samaritan village on the way, they were offended by the fact that he was heading to Jerusalem and would not welcome Jesus. And so, James and John, the sons of Thunder said, “Lord, do you want us to call fire down from heaven?” And Jesus rebuked them. He rebuked them. It’s like, that’s not what we’re doing here. The Son of Man didn’t come into the world to destroy.
But he doesn’t rebuke them here, and keep in mind they’re perfected. They’re glorified, so they would never ask amiss. Vengeance is coming. There is no doubt about it, and it’s openly promised, “Do not take revenge but leave room for the wrath of God,” it says in Romans 12, “for it is written, ‘Vengeance is mine,'” listen to the next words, “‘I will repay.'” And the Book of Revelation is the clearest depiction of that repayment. He is most certainly going to be working vengeance on the behalf of his saints, and it’s openly taught in Revelation 16 when the angel in charge of the waters pours out judgment from the trumpet blasts. And he pours out judgment, I think, when the seven bulls are being poured out on the earth. And judgment is poured out on the drinking water on earth, turning it into blood, and they celebrate saying, “You are right in doing this because they shed the blood of your people, and you have given them blood to drink as they deserved.” (Revelation 16:5-6, paraphrase). So, vengeance is appropriate, it’s coming, and their crying out for it is appropriate. They want it to happen, but they’re told to wait.
Wes
This cry, “How long, O Lord,” is repeated many times in the Psalms in connection with the suffering of the people of God. What should we make of this connection?
Andy
Yeah, I think what we make of the cry “for how long” is the fact that God is patient. We’re told in 2 Peter that the Lord is patient not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come, and the vengeance is going to come. In the meantime, Peter tells us, bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, but there’s a lot of, “how long, O Lord, how long” cries. And I think what it is God himself is waiting.
He knows how long, but he’s still holding out his hands to a disobedient obstinate people. So, what we make of it is that these events are going to go on much, much longer than the people want them to. I mean, when you’re undergoing this level of suffering, every hour is like a day, every day is like a year. It’s just, how are we going to even get through this? And it seems like a long time, so how long implies that there’s a lot of waiting and patience that we have to do. Also, it says in Romans 9 concerning the reprobate, “What if God choosing to show his wrath and make his power known bore with great patience the objects of wrath prepared for destruction?” So, this is the time of patience in which for a long time it seems like they succeed.
Wes
Now, we’ve noted that these souls who are crying out are not rebuked, but they are answered. What answer are these crying souls given and why must they wait for their vindication?
Andy
Okay, so the first answer is they’re given the white robes, and the second is they’re told to wait until the full number of martyrs, their brother martyrs that will be condemned, has come in. Now, as I said, this could represent all martyrs in all eras of church history, 20th centuries of martyrs. And there’ve been martyrs in every generation beginning with Stephen. But what I would say is that there’s going to be a great escalation of martyrdom at the end of the world. If you read in Daniel 7:21 and 24, the beast from the sea, the little horn there in Daniel 7, but the beast from the sea in Revelation 13 is given power to wage war against the saints and to defeat them on earth. Now, he can’t defeat them in heaven. Once they kill the body, there’s, Jesus said, nothing more they can do. And so, the fact of the matter is they’re going to be the enemies of God, are going to be defeated, but this is a time of great suffering.
And so, I believe the over, overwhelming majority of martyrs that will be finally in the end killed for Christ, have not yet been killed, that there’s going to be a great surge of martyrdom. If you look later in the Book of Revelation where the people of God refuse to receive the mark of the beast, anyone who does receive it spends eternity in hell, so they don’t receive it. But by it, they alone, they are enabled to buy and sell in the economy of earth. So, they’re not buying or selling, they are refugees, they’re fleeing, they’re trying somehow to survive. If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive. Terrible, terrible times. So, they are told to wait until the full number of martyrs has come in, and so there’s a lot more that still need to die.
Wes
In verses 12-17, we have the depiction of the opening of the sixth seal and the scope of the impact of this sixth seal. In verse 12 it says, “When he opened the sixth seal, I looked and behold there was a great earthquake.” How is the earthquake a display of the wrath of God, and what is the lesson of an earthquake to the inhabitants of the earth?
Andy
Well, earthquakes are just simply terrifying. I’ve lived through one myself. In January of 1995, my family and I were in Japan and the Great Hanshin earthquake occurred, and 5,500 Japanese people died. And I literally felt the earth beneath my feet moving. And where are you going to go? I mean, everything’s based on the solidity of the earth. And so, when the earth moves, the shaking of the earth, it’s extremely humbling to the human race. You realize there’s literally nothing that we can do. And so, it’s terrifying. So, the beginning of the events connected with the breaking open of the sixth seal is a movement of the earth itself. And by the end of this paragraph, every mountain and island and everything is removed from its place, and so everything’s moving. And so, what it means is everything you can experience with your five senses is temporary. You just need to understand that the ground under your feet can be moved, and so it begins with tremendous humbling and terror. I think this is all designed for terror.
Wes
What’s the significance of the sun, moon and stars being affected by the sixth seal and what does that show us about the earth’s role in the universe?
Andy
Yeah, it’s a very important question. People ask many times if I believe that there is sentient life somewhere else in the cosmos. And actually, my alma mater MIT has a museum, and they have this whole kind of just completely unscientific assumptions based on statistical probabilities and all of these things. They make it sound so scientific, but it’s absolutely unscientific speculation where they come up with something like 1,477,000 possible habitable planets just like earth somewhere in the cosmos. They have literally no evidence of any of this, but it just comes with a bunch of assumptions, and they want it to be so. We know that the earth revolves physically around the sun, not the other way around, so Copernicus taught us that. However, we believe that the Bible is earth-centered in its purpose physically. Like the events that are happening that are covered in the Bible. The Bible’s a human book, and we live on planet earth.
And so therefore, the Bible has as its frame of reference and its perspective earth. And so therefore in Genesis 1 when the sun and the moon and the stars are created, their purpose is openly stated as an earth-centered purpose. They are designed, they are created to give light to the earth and to mark seasons and days and years. And so, when that purpose comes to an end, they end. When history on earth ends, the sun, moon and stars, their history ends as well. So that tells me there’s nothing else going on physically anywhere else in the universe. Furthermore, how do we understand the atonement of Christ on planet earth, and is he going and doing that same thing in other planets everywhere? It just makes no sense. So, what that tells me is when history ends, that’s what Revelation is covering, the time for the sun, moon, and stars will have ended.
Now, I don’t deny that this will bend and, perhaps, even break your brain as you try to figure it out. What does it mean that the stars fall to the earth like figs dropping from a fig tree late in the season? Well, I can picture pictures of light, like balls of light, stars falling, dropping. I can picture what that looks like. I think God can do anything at all. But what we’re seeing is light from a distant ball of fire, so we believe. It’s not just a pipeline of light, so how that moves and all that, as you suggested before we went on the podcast, like God planned ahead, and they’ve already fallen, but the news hasn’t reached us yet. And it’s all timed to coincide with the events on earth. And it’s like, look, I don’t know. All I know is I read the verse, and I believe that the present heavens and earth, as Peter says, are reserved for fire and they’re going to be made new in a new heaven, new earth.
Wes
All of these raise questions that I think have been a perennial topic and issue for Christians, namely the timing of the Book of Revelation. If this is the end, how do we understand these things literally and still hold that the events in chapter 7-22 unfold chronologically. How would you put all of this together as we try to understand the book as a whole?
Andy
It’s complicated. I mean, hermeneutics or the science of interpretation may be the hardest in the Book of Revelation. There’s a lot of symbolic language, but we know we’re dealing with literal, physical planet earth in its history, so it’s got to connect with physical, too. So how do we harmonize that? And I try to err on the side of a simple physical, grammatical, historical reading. So, if it says X happen, X will happen. So, in terms of the unfolding chronology, it seems nested. It’s like the seven within the seven within the seven, like the sixth seal brings us to the end of the story pretty clearly.
Then it goes back a little bit, and then tells us more details toward the compressed end of the story. And the reason I know that is in Revelation 8, there’s a judgment on the stars. So, a third of the stars turn dark. Yeah, well, they all fell to the ground like figs from a fig tree in the sixth seal. So it cannot be that if some verse is later than another verse in Revelation, it happens after it in history, that clearly cannot be. So, you have to have a more nuanced and intelligent reading of the Book of Revelation. So, the way I look at it is the six seals cover the whole history. And then the seven trumpets go back and give us a little more details toward the end, and then the six bowls come in maybe even toward the end of the seven trumpets. That’s the way I conflate them.
Wes
What’s the response of humanity to these cataclysms? What’s the significance of the people that are listed here in verse 15, kings, great men, rich men, commanders, mighty men, every slave and every free man?
Andy
Well, let’s just do that at the end. Every slave and every free man, so that’s everybody. And it’s just different ways of saying everybody. So, everybody, and as you read this list of people, there’s no indication of faith in Christ. There’s no indication of finding refuge, which is what they’re seeking. They’re yearning for refuge. There’s no indication of finding refuge from the wrath of God and of the Lamb through faith in Christ. They’re looking for a physical cave or place to hide until this overwhelming scourge of the wrath of God passes by. Well, there’ll be no hiding from this tornado. There’s no cellar in which we can survive this hurricane. He is going to hunt people down and kill them. There’s nowhere to hide. The only refuge there ever has been or ever could be is faith in Christ, and they didn’t want it. They weren’t looking for it. So, these are non-Christian people of any sort, and at that point, what they were literally doesn’t matter.
“There’s nowhere to hide. The only refuge there ever has been or ever could be is faith in Christ.”
They’re going to be judged, they’re going to die, and they know it. They know being the king or being the slave, or being the free man or being the merchant, or being the mighty man, none of that matters. All of those things are over. History is over, and these individuals are going to be swept away in a fireball of judgment, so that’s what’s coming here. They’re all looking for refuge. Someone called it the greatest prayer that’s ever been prayed, but it’s not prayed to God. Then every human being on earth cried out saying to the mountains and to the hills and to everything, “Fall on us and hide us from this wrath, from the wrath of God and of the Lamb, the one who sits on the throne.” And so, they’re looking for refuge, and they’re not going to find it.
Wes
Andy, what should we make of that expression, the wrath of the Lamb?
Andy
Right. I noted this with the Lion of the tribe of Judah, and then I looked and saw a Lamb as if it had been slain. There is never again, as far as I remember, I think there’s never again a mention of the word lion. I think from that point on, Jesus is pictured and discussed only as Lamb, but he sure behaves like a lion. And right here, this is behavior like a lion. He’s ripping his enemies to shreds, but it’s called the wrath of the Lamb. And why the enemies of God call him the Lamb, I don’t know. But I think it’s more translated for us, the readers, the redeemed readers, where it’s like, “Oh, Lamb is always Jesus.”
And so, I think what it means is, it’s like when God separated the Egyptian army, Pharaoh’s armies, from the cowering terrified Jewish people. And it was dark on the one side and light on the other, and so it’s like Lion on the one side and Lamb on the other. For us, it’s Lamb, but for the enemies it’s Lion. And so, he’s doing all of this for us and on our behalf. So, the phrase wrath of the Lamb is anomalous. It’s interesting and fascinating, but I think what it is is he’s making a distinction between his people and his enemies.
Wes
What does this passage teach us about God the Father and God the Son, and what does it teach us about the need for salvation from the wrath of God?
Andy
Well, the very last thing said in this chapter, “The great day of their wrath has come and who shall be able to stand?” And the answer is clearly only those who have faith in Christ. I actually believe that the beginning of Revelation 7 is the answer to that question. So, Revelation 7 has the 144,000 sealed from every tribe of Israel, and then the multitude from every tribe, language, people and nation. There’s your answer, that’s who’s able to stand- those who have repented and trusted in Christ. So, it’s really quite interesting, but they are asking it like a rhetorical question. There is no answer. This overwhelming wrath has come and there’s no surviving it, and for them there isn’t. So, I think what it does is it causes me to fear God, to fear judgment day, to make certain that I am saved, to make my calling and election sure. Anyone who listens to this podcast make certain that you have repented and trusted in Christ because there is no other refuge from the wrath of God and of the Lamb.
Wes
Andy, these really are incredible verses. What final thoughts do you have for us today on these verses we’ve been looking at?
Andy
Well, as we read Revelation, as we read here, the seven seals, the first six seals depicted in Revelation 6, it really should cause us to fear, it should cause us to have perspective. We put so much stock in the five-cents world that we live in, and it’s all temporary. And it should cause us to want to use our time, energy, money wisely.
We should make certain that we’re not the rich fool that builds bigger barns and stores up good things for ourselves and says, “Take life easy. You’ve got a lot of things stored up for yourself.” Do not think like that, and instead to realize the ground we walk on is temporary, it’s going to be removed. The stars that are over our heads that are so distant, we can literally do nothing to them, but God can. He can bring them down, that’s the power that God has. And so, to fear him and flee to Christ in faith and to trust in him, that’s what I get out of Revelation 6.
Wes
Well, this has been Episode 8 in our Revelation Bible Study Podcast. We want to invite you to join us next time for Episode 9 entitled An Interlude, The Saints in Heaven, where we’ll discuss Revelation 7:1-17. Thank you for listening to the Two Journeys Podcast. And may the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all.
Wes
Welcome to the Two Journeys Bible Study podcast. This podcast is just one of the many resources available to you for free from Two Journeys Ministry. If you’re interested in learning more, just head over to twojourneys.org. Now, on to today’s episode. This is Episode 8 in our Revelation Bible Study podcast entitled The Fifth and Sixth Seals, where we’ll discuss Revelation 6:9-17. I’m Wes Treadway, and I’m here with Pastor Andy Davis. Andy, what are we going to see in these verses that we’re looking at today?
Andy
Well, these are some of the most dramatic moments in the Book of Revelation. They happen early in Revelation, Revelation 6, with the breaking open of the seven seals, and this is the fifth and sixth seal that are broken open by Jesus. And we’re going to see martyrdom, and then we’re going to see the end of the cosmos, the end of the earth as we know it. And so, we’re going to talk about those cataclysmic events and how they fit into God’s ultimate plan.
Wes
Well, let me go ahead and read verses 9-17 in Revelation 6.
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. They cried out with a loud voice, “O, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been. When he opened the sixth seal, I looked and behold there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale.
The sky vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”
Andy, what does John see when Christ opened the fifth seal and where is the scene set?
Andy
Well, what we’ve seen about the seals in general is that the scroll is in the right hand of God. He gives it to Christ. It’s sealed with seven seals, and as he breaks open the seals in heaven, things happen on earth. And so, Jesus has the authority to initiate the eschatological or end-time events that the Book of Revelation covers. And we saw the first four seals lined up with the famous four horsemen of the apocalypse, which represent effects on earth as we discussed last time. Now, with the fifth seal, we have a depiction of martyrs. Now, the scene is in heaven; the martyrs are in heaven; they’re under the altar in heaven, and they’re crying out for vengeance as we’ll talk about. But clearly their time on earth ended with their own martyrdom, so the focus is on heavenly scene. But they are focused on earth, and they are aware of what is or is not happening on earth. So, the focus is in heaven, and the initiation is with Christ.
Wes
You mentioned this, but remind us again who are the souls slain for the word of God and their testimony, and do they have their resurrection bodies at this point?
Andy
Yeah, so these are servants of God, saints, they would be called, who are martyred, I believe, under the effect of the Antichrist’s rule. It could represent, frankly, martyrs in every era. Because if we look at the uncertain signs of the end in Matthew 24, wars, rumors of wars, famines, earthquakes in various places, and then, “You’ll be persecuted by all and be hated by all on account of me.” Well, that happens in every generation. So, this could be martyrs in every generation. It could be eschatological martyrs or martyrs right before the end. In any case, there’s no intrinsic difference. It’s just a great ramping up of the miseries that happen toward the end of the world, so there are martyrs in every generation. And so fundamentally, these are individuals who live for the glory of God and were faithful in their testimony of Jesus and paid for it with their lives. Now, what really strikes me and it’s very noteworthy, is that Jesus initiates the events that lead to their martyrdom.
And so, the plan, the sovereign plan of God includes the slaughter of his own beloved people. And that is very precious to him, as the scripture says, “Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of his saints” (Psalm 166:15). And especially precious is the death of those who are dying directly for his kingdom, for the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. And so fundamentally he is interested in that, and yet he is the one who initiates the events that bring it about. So, what we have to see all the time with the connection between the sovereignty of God and human responsibility is God makes the plan, but human beings are responsible for what they have done, and that’s exactly what’s going on here. The martyrs are crying out for vengeance concerning their earthly enemies who slaughtered them unjustly. These are individuals who didn’t do anything wrong, and yet they were slaughtered. And so, they’re crying out for vengeance.
“The connection between the sovereignty of God and human responsibility is [that] God makes the plan, but human beings are responsible for what they have done.”
We also need to deal with the question that you raised concerning their resurrection bodies, and I believe that the resurrection of the body happens at the second coming of Christ. This is very clearly taught in 1 Thessalonians 4 and also in 1 Corinthians 15. So no, I don’t think they have their resurrection bodies yet because then the second coming of Christ is depicted in the Book of Revelation in chapter 19, and we’re not even close to that. These are ongoing events. Other things are yet to happen, so no, they’re absent from the body, and they’re present with the Lord. One might well ask then, “What do they need with white robes?” And I think what we need to understand is the white robes are definitely at least symbolic, if not physical. And so, they are symbolic of the imputed righteousness of Christ, as he counseled the church at Laodicea to buy robes that will cover your shameful nakedness.
And this represents that covering that the imputed righteousness of Christ gives all of us sinners, knowing that we do not have to stand accountable on Judgment Day ultimately for all of our sins. But we are covered as Psalm 32 says, “Blessed is a man whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered.” And so, this white robe throughout the Book of Revelation represents the imputed righteousness of Christ and the covering that the saints in heaven have experienced through their faith in Christ. So, I believe they’re absent from the body, present with the Lord, waiting for the vengeance that the Lord has promised, which we’ll talk about in a moment, I’m sure. But they don’t have their resurrection bodies yet.
Wes
What’s the significance of the fact that John sees them under the altar?
Andy
Well, this is a physical posture that’s well known to readers of the Old Testament where you see individuals will flee into the tabernacle or the temple and take hold of the horns of the altar, and they’re basically making appeal to heaven for protection. And so, there’s numbers of times that this occurs. And so, this is a picture of the martyrs appealing to God for vengeance, and they’re crying out for it. They want it and they yearn for vengeance, so the picture of them being under the altar is appealing to the sovereign God, their heavenly Father, and to the Lord to avenge them.
Wes
How should we understand this cry for vindication? I mean we have other instances in scripture such as Jesus saying, “Father, forgive them,” when he is faced with his accusers, with those who put him to death, and Stephen saying, “Lord, do not lay this sin to their charge,” each speaking about their persecutors. How should we understand this cry for vindication?
Andy
Well, it is a reasonable desire that they have, and there’s nothing wicked about it. Clearly, it’s not rebuked. Jesus doesn’t rebuke them. On earth, when Jesus was ministering, and he came to a certain Samaritan village and he was resolutely setting out for Jerusalem but was stopping at this Samaritan village on the way, they were offended by the fact that he was heading to Jerusalem and would not welcome Jesus. And so, James and John, the sons of Thunder said, “Lord, do you want us to call fire down from heaven?” And Jesus rebuked them. He rebuked them. It’s like, that’s not what we’re doing here. The Son of Man didn’t come into the world to destroy.
But he doesn’t rebuke them here, and keep in mind they’re perfected. They’re glorified, so they would never ask amiss. Vengeance is coming. There is no doubt about it, and it’s openly promised, “Do not take revenge but leave room for the wrath of God,” it says in Romans 12, “for it is written, ‘Vengeance is mine,'” listen to the next words, “‘I will repay.'” And the Book of Revelation is the clearest depiction of that repayment. He is most certainly going to be working vengeance on the behalf of his saints, and it’s openly taught in Revelation 16 when the angel in charge of the waters pours out judgment from the trumpet blasts. And he pours out judgment, I think, when the seven bulls are being poured out on the earth. And judgment is poured out on the drinking water on earth, turning it into blood, and they celebrate saying, “You are right in doing this because they shed the blood of your people, and you have given them blood to drink as they deserved.” (Revelation 16:5-6, paraphrase). So, vengeance is appropriate, it’s coming, and their crying out for it is appropriate. They want it to happen, but they’re told to wait.
Wes
This cry, “How long, O Lord,” is repeated many times in the Psalms in connection with the suffering of the people of God. What should we make of this connection?
Andy
Yeah, I think what we make of the cry “for how long” is the fact that God is patient. We’re told in 2 Peter that the Lord is patient not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come, and the vengeance is going to come. In the meantime, Peter tells us, bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, but there’s a lot of, “how long, O Lord, how long” cries. And I think what it is God himself is waiting.
He knows how long, but he’s still holding out his hands to a disobedient obstinate people. So, what we make of it is that these events are going to go on much, much longer than the people want them to. I mean, when you’re undergoing this level of suffering, every hour is like a day, every day is like a year. It’s just, how are we going to even get through this? And it seems like a long time, so how long implies that there’s a lot of waiting and patience that we have to do. Also, it says in Romans 9 concerning the reprobate, “What if God choosing to show his wrath and make his power known bore with great patience the objects of wrath prepared for destruction?” So, this is the time of patience in which for a long time it seems like they succeed.
Wes
Now, we’ve noted that these souls who are crying out are not rebuked, but they are answered. What answer are these crying souls given and why must they wait for their vindication?
Andy
Okay, so the first answer is they’re given the white robes, and the second is they’re told to wait until the full number of martyrs, their brother martyrs that will be condemned, has come in. Now, as I said, this could represent all martyrs in all eras of church history, 20th centuries of martyrs. And there’ve been martyrs in every generation beginning with Stephen. But what I would say is that there’s going to be a great escalation of martyrdom at the end of the world. If you read in Daniel 7:21 and 24, the beast from the sea, the little horn there in Daniel 7, but the beast from the sea in Revelation 13 is given power to wage war against the saints and to defeat them on earth. Now, he can’t defeat them in heaven. Once they kill the body, there’s, Jesus said, nothing more they can do. And so, the fact of the matter is they’re going to be the enemies of God, are going to be defeated, but this is a time of great suffering.
And so, I believe the over, overwhelming majority of martyrs that will be finally in the end killed for Christ, have not yet been killed, that there’s going to be a great surge of martyrdom. If you look later in the Book of Revelation where the people of God refuse to receive the mark of the beast, anyone who does receive it spends eternity in hell, so they don’t receive it. But by it, they alone, they are enabled to buy and sell in the economy of earth. So, they’re not buying or selling, they are refugees, they’re fleeing, they’re trying somehow to survive. If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive. Terrible, terrible times. So, they are told to wait until the full number of martyrs has come in, and so there’s a lot more that still need to die.
Wes
In verses 12-17, we have the depiction of the opening of the sixth seal and the scope of the impact of this sixth seal. In verse 12 it says, “When he opened the sixth seal, I looked and behold there was a great earthquake.” How is the earthquake a display of the wrath of God, and what is the lesson of an earthquake to the inhabitants of the earth?
Andy
Well, earthquakes are just simply terrifying. I’ve lived through one myself. In January of 1995, my family and I were in Japan and the Great Hanshin earthquake occurred, and 5,500 Japanese people died. And I literally felt the earth beneath my feet moving. And where are you going to go? I mean, everything’s based on the solidity of the earth. And so, when the earth moves, the shaking of the earth, it’s extremely humbling to the human race. You realize there’s literally nothing that we can do. And so, it’s terrifying. So, the beginning of the events connected with the breaking open of the sixth seal is a movement of the earth itself. And by the end of this paragraph, every mountain and island and everything is removed from its place, and so everything’s moving. And so, what it means is everything you can experience with your five senses is temporary. You just need to understand that the ground under your feet can be moved, and so it begins with tremendous humbling and terror. I think this is all designed for terror.
Wes
What’s the significance of the sun, moon and stars being affected by the sixth seal and what does that show us about the earth’s role in the universe?
Andy
Yeah, it’s a very important question. People ask many times if I believe that there is sentient life somewhere else in the cosmos. And actually, my alma mater MIT has a museum, and they have this whole kind of just completely unscientific assumptions based on statistical probabilities and all of these things. They make it sound so scientific, but it’s absolutely unscientific speculation where they come up with something like 1,477,000 possible habitable planets just like earth somewhere in the cosmos. They have literally no evidence of any of this, but it just comes with a bunch of assumptions, and they want it to be so. We know that the earth revolves physically around the sun, not the other way around, so Copernicus taught us that. However, we believe that the Bible is earth-centered in its purpose physically. Like the events that are happening that are covered in the Bible. The Bible’s a human book, and we live on planet earth.
And so therefore, the Bible has as its frame of reference and its perspective earth. And so therefore in Genesis 1 when the sun and the moon and the stars are created, their purpose is openly stated as an earth-centered purpose. They are designed, they are created to give light to the earth and to mark seasons and days and years. And so, when that purpose comes to an end, they end. When history on earth ends, the sun, moon and stars, their history ends as well. So that tells me there’s nothing else going on physically anywhere else in the universe. Furthermore, how do we understand the atonement of Christ on planet earth, and is he going and doing that same thing in other planets everywhere? It just makes no sense. So, what that tells me is when history ends, that’s what Revelation is covering, the time for the sun, moon, and stars will have ended.
Now, I don’t deny that this will bend and, perhaps, even break your brain as you try to figure it out. What does it mean that the stars fall to the earth like figs dropping from a fig tree late in the season? Well, I can picture pictures of light, like balls of light, stars falling, dropping. I can picture what that looks like. I think God can do anything at all. But what we’re seeing is light from a distant ball of fire, so we believe. It’s not just a pipeline of light, so how that moves and all that, as you suggested before we went on the podcast, like God planned ahead, and they’ve already fallen, but the news hasn’t reached us yet. And it’s all timed to coincide with the events on earth. And it’s like, look, I don’t know. All I know is I read the verse, and I believe that the present heavens and earth, as Peter says, are reserved for fire and they’re going to be made new in a new heaven, new earth.
Wes
All of these raise questions that I think have been a perennial topic and issue for Christians, namely the timing of the Book of Revelation. If this is the end, how do we understand these things literally and still hold that the events in chapter 7-22 unfold chronologically. How would you put all of this together as we try to understand the book as a whole?
Andy
It’s complicated. I mean, hermeneutics or the science of interpretation may be the hardest in the Book of Revelation. There’s a lot of symbolic language, but we know we’re dealing with literal, physical planet earth in its history, so it’s got to connect with physical, too. So how do we harmonize that? And I try to err on the side of a simple physical, grammatical, historical reading. So, if it says X happen, X will happen. So, in terms of the unfolding chronology, it seems nested. It’s like the seven within the seven within the seven, like the sixth seal brings us to the end of the story pretty clearly.
Then it goes back a little bit, and then tells us more details toward the compressed end of the story. And the reason I know that is in Revelation 8, there’s a judgment on the stars. So, a third of the stars turn dark. Yeah, well, they all fell to the ground like figs from a fig tree in the sixth seal. So it cannot be that if some verse is later than another verse in Revelation, it happens after it in history, that clearly cannot be. So, you have to have a more nuanced and intelligent reading of the Book of Revelation. So, the way I look at it is the six seals cover the whole history. And then the seven trumpets go back and give us a little more details toward the end, and then the six bowls come in maybe even toward the end of the seven trumpets. That’s the way I conflate them.
Wes
What’s the response of humanity to these cataclysms? What’s the significance of the people that are listed here in verse 15, kings, great men, rich men, commanders, mighty men, every slave and every free man?
Andy
Well, let’s just do that at the end. Every slave and every free man, so that’s everybody. And it’s just different ways of saying everybody. So, everybody, and as you read this list of people, there’s no indication of faith in Christ. There’s no indication of finding refuge, which is what they’re seeking. They’re yearning for refuge. There’s no indication of finding refuge from the wrath of God and of the Lamb through faith in Christ. They’re looking for a physical cave or place to hide until this overwhelming scourge of the wrath of God passes by. Well, there’ll be no hiding from this tornado. There’s no cellar in which we can survive this hurricane. He is going to hunt people down and kill them. There’s nowhere to hide. The only refuge there ever has been or ever could be is faith in Christ, and they didn’t want it. They weren’t looking for it. So, these are non-Christian people of any sort, and at that point, what they were literally doesn’t matter.
“There’s nowhere to hide. The only refuge there ever has been or ever could be is faith in Christ.”
They’re going to be judged, they’re going to die, and they know it. They know being the king or being the slave, or being the free man or being the merchant, or being the mighty man, none of that matters. All of those things are over. History is over, and these individuals are going to be swept away in a fireball of judgment, so that’s what’s coming here. They’re all looking for refuge. Someone called it the greatest prayer that’s ever been prayed, but it’s not prayed to God. Then every human being on earth cried out saying to the mountains and to the hills and to everything, “Fall on us and hide us from this wrath, from the wrath of God and of the Lamb, the one who sits on the throne.” And so, they’re looking for refuge, and they’re not going to find it.
Wes
Andy, what should we make of that expression, the wrath of the Lamb?
Andy
Right. I noted this with the Lion of the tribe of Judah, and then I looked and saw a Lamb as if it had been slain. There is never again, as far as I remember, I think there’s never again a mention of the word lion. I think from that point on, Jesus is pictured and discussed only as Lamb, but he sure behaves like a lion. And right here, this is behavior like a lion. He’s ripping his enemies to shreds, but it’s called the wrath of the Lamb. And why the enemies of God call him the Lamb, I don’t know. But I think it’s more translated for us, the readers, the redeemed readers, where it’s like, “Oh, Lamb is always Jesus.”
And so, I think what it means is, it’s like when God separated the Egyptian army, Pharaoh’s armies, from the cowering terrified Jewish people. And it was dark on the one side and light on the other, and so it’s like Lion on the one side and Lamb on the other. For us, it’s Lamb, but for the enemies it’s Lion. And so, he’s doing all of this for us and on our behalf. So, the phrase wrath of the Lamb is anomalous. It’s interesting and fascinating, but I think what it is is he’s making a distinction between his people and his enemies.
Wes
What does this passage teach us about God the Father and God the Son, and what does it teach us about the need for salvation from the wrath of God?
Andy
Well, the very last thing said in this chapter, “The great day of their wrath has come and who shall be able to stand?” And the answer is clearly only those who have faith in Christ. I actually believe that the beginning of Revelation 7 is the answer to that question. So, Revelation 7 has the 144,000 sealed from every tribe of Israel, and then the multitude from every tribe, language, people and nation. There’s your answer, that’s who’s able to stand- those who have repented and trusted in Christ. So, it’s really quite interesting, but they are asking it like a rhetorical question. There is no answer. This overwhelming wrath has come and there’s no surviving it, and for them there isn’t. So, I think what it does is it causes me to fear God, to fear judgment day, to make certain that I am saved, to make my calling and election sure. Anyone who listens to this podcast make certain that you have repented and trusted in Christ because there is no other refuge from the wrath of God and of the Lamb.
Wes
Andy, these really are incredible verses. What final thoughts do you have for us today on these verses we’ve been looking at?
Andy
Well, as we read Revelation, as we read here, the seven seals, the first six seals depicted in Revelation 6, it really should cause us to fear, it should cause us to have perspective. We put so much stock in the five-cents world that we live in, and it’s all temporary. And it should cause us to want to use our time, energy, money wisely.
We should make certain that we’re not the rich fool that builds bigger barns and stores up good things for ourselves and says, “Take life easy. You’ve got a lot of things stored up for yourself.” Do not think like that, and instead to realize the ground we walk on is temporary, it’s going to be removed. The stars that are over our heads that are so distant, we can literally do nothing to them, but God can. He can bring them down, that’s the power that God has. And so, to fear him and flee to Christ in faith and to trust in him, that’s what I get out of Revelation 6.
Wes
Well, this has been Episode 8 in our Revelation Bible Study Podcast. We want to invite you to join us next time for Episode 9 entitled An Interlude, The Saints in Heaven, where we’ll discuss Revelation 7:1-17. Thank you for listening to the Two Journeys Podcast. And may the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all.
